Bryan Wheeler, Director Platform Development at msnbc.com
“
Udi Dahan is the real deal.We brought him on site to give our development staff the 5-day “Advanced Distributed System Design” training. The course profoundly changed our understanding and approach to SOA and distributed systems.
Consider some of the evidence: 1. Months later, developers still make allusions to concepts learned in the course nearly every day 2. One of our developers went home and made her husband (a developer at another company) sign up for the course at a subsequent date/venue 3. Based on what we learned, we’ve made constant improvements to our architecture that have helped us to adapt to our ever changing business domain at scale and speed If you have the opportunity to receive the training, you will make a substantial paradigm shift.
If I were to do the whole thing over again, I’d start the week by playing the clip from the Matrix where Morpheus offers Neo the choice between the red and blue pills. Once you make the intellectual leap, you’ll never look at distributed systems the same way.
Beyond the training, we were able to spend some time with Udi discussing issues unique to our business domain. Because Udi is a rare combination of a big picture thinker and a low level doer, he can quickly hone in on various issues and quickly make good (if not startling) recommendations to help solve tough technical issues.” November 11, 2010
Sam Gentile, Independent WCF & SOA Expert
“Udi, one of the great minds in this area.
A man I respect immensely.”
Ian Robinson, Principal Consultant at ThoughtWorks
"Your blog and articles have been enormously useful in shaping, testing and refining my own approach to delivering on SOA initiatives over the last few years. Over and against a certain 3-layer-application-architecture-blown-out-to- distributed-proportions school of SOA,
your writing, steers a far more valuable course."
Shy Cohen, Senior Program Manager at Microsoft
“Udi is a world renowned software architect and speaker. I met Udi at a conference that we were both speaking at, and immediately recognized his keen insight and razor-sharp intellect. Our shared passion for SOA and the advancement of its practice launched a discussion that lasted into the small hours of the night.
It was evident through that discussion that Udi is one of the most knowledgeable people in the SOA space. It was also clear why – Udi does not settle for mediocrity, and seeks to fully understand (or define) the logic and principles behind things.
Humble yet uncompromising, Udi is a pleasure to interact with.”
Glenn Block, Senior Program Manager - WCF at Microsoft
“I have known Udi for many years having attended his workshops and having several personal interactions including working with him when we were building our Composite Application Guidance in patterns & practices.
What impresses me about Udi is his deep insight into how to address business problems through sound architecture. Backed by many years of building mission critical real world distributed systems it is no wonder that Udi is the best at what he does. When customers have deep issues with their system design, I point them Udi's way.”
Karl Wannenmacher, Senior Lead Expert at Frequentis AG
“I have been following Udi’s blog and podcasts since 2007. I’m convinced that he is one of the most knowledgeable and experienced people in the field of SOA, EDA and large scale systems.
Udi helped Frequentis to design a major subsystem of a large mission critical system with a
nationwide deployment based on NServiceBus. It was impressive to see how he took the initial architecture and turned it upside down leading to a very flexible and scalable yet simple system without knowing the details of the business domain.
I highly recommend consulting with Udi when it comes to large scale mission critical systems in any domain.”
Simon Segal, Independent Consultant
“Udi is one of the outstanding software development minds in the world today, his vast insights into Service Oriented Architectures and Smart Clients in particular are indeed a rare commodity.
Udi is also an exceptional teacher and can help lead teams to fall into the pit of success. I would recommend Udi to anyone considering some Architecural guidance and support in their next project.”
Ohad Israeli, Chief Architect at Hewlett-Packard, Indigo Division
“When you need a man to do the job Udi is your man! No matter if you are facing near deadline deadlock or at the early stages of your development, if you have a problem Udi is the one who will probably be able to solve it, with his large experience at the industry and his widely horizons of thinking , he is always
full of just in place great architectural ideas.
I am honored to have Udi as a colleague and a friend (plus having his cell phone on my speed dial).”
Ward Bell, VP Product Development at IdeaBlade
“Everyone will tell you how smart and knowledgable Udi is ... and they are oh-so-right. Let me add that Udi is a smart LISTENER. He's always calibrating what he has to offer with your needs and your experience ... looking for the fit. He has strongly held views ... and the ability to temper them with the nuances of the situation.
I trust Udi to tell me what I need to hear, even if I don't want to hear it, ... in a way that I can hear it. That's a rare skill to go along with his command and intelligence.”
Eli Brin, Program Manager at RISCO Group
“We hired Udi as a SOA specialist for a large scale project. The development is outsourced to India. SOA is a buzzword used almost for anything today. We wanted to understand what SOA really is, and what is the meaning and practice to develop a SOA based system.
We identified Udi as the one that can put some sense and order in our minds. We started with a private customized SOA training for the entire team in Israel. After that I had several focused sessions regarding our architecture and design.
I will summarize it simply (as he is the software simplist): We are very happy to have Udi in our project. It has a great benefit. We feel good and assured with the knowledge and practice he brings.
He doesn’t talk over our heads. We assimilated nServicebus as the ESB of the project. I highly recommend you to bring Udi into your project.”
Catherine Hole, Senior Project Manager at the Norwegian Health Network
“My colleagues and I have spent five interesting days with Udi - diving into the many aspects of SOA. Udi has shown impressive abilities of understanding organizational challenges, and has brought the business perspective into our way of looking at services. He has an excellent understanding of the many layers from business at the top to the technical infrstructure at the bottom. He is a great listener, and manages to simplify challenges in a way that is
understandable both for developers and CEOs, and all the specialists in between.”
Yoel Arnon, MSMQ Expert
“Udi has a unique, in depth understanding of service oriented architecture and
how it should be used in the real world, combined with excellent presentation skills. I think Udi should be a premier choice for a consultant or architect of distributed systems.”
Vadim Mesonzhnik, Development Project Lead at Polycom
“When we were faced with a task of creating a high performance server for a video-tele conferencing domain we decided to opt for a stateless cluster with SQL server approach. In order to confirm our decision we invited Udi.
After carefully listening for 2 hours he said: "With your kind of high availability and performance requirements you don’t want to go with stateless architecture."
One simple sentence saved us from implementing a wrong product and finding that out after years of development. No matter whether our former decisions were confirmed or altered, it gave us great confidence to move forward relying on the experience, industry best-practices and time-proven techniques that Udi shared with us.
It was a distinct pleasure and a unique opportunity to learn from someone who is among the best at what he does.”
Jack Van Hoof, Enterprise Integration Architect at Dutch Railways
“Udi is a respected visionary on SOA and EDA, whose opinion I most of the time (if not always) highly agree with.
The nice thing about Udi is that he is able to explain architectural concepts in terms of practical code-level examples.”
Neil Robbins, Applications Architect at Brit Insurance
“Having followed Udi's blog and other writings for a number of years I attended Udi's two day course on 'Loosely Coupled Messaging with NServiceBus' at SkillsMatter, London.
I would strongly recommend this course to anyone with an interest in how to develop IT systems which provide immediate and future fitness for purpose. An influential and innovative thought leader and practitioner in his field, Udi demonstrates and shares a phenomenally in depth knowledge that proves his position as one of the premier experts in his field globally.
The course has enhanced my knowledge and skills in ways that I am able to immediately apply to provide benefits to my employer. Additionally though I will be able to build upon what I learned in my 2 days with Udi and have no doubt that it will only enhance my future career.
I cannot recommend Udi, and his courses, highly enough.”
Nick Malik, Enterprise Architect at Microsoft Corporation
“
You are an excellent speaker and trainer, Udi, and I've had the fortunate experience of having attended one of your presentations. I believe that you are a knowledgable and intelligent man.”
Sean Farmar, Chief Technical Architect at Candidate Manager Ltd
“Udi has provided us with guidance in system architecture and supports our implementation of NServiceBus in our core business application.
He accompanied us in all stages of our development cycle and helped us put vision into real life distributed scalable software. He brought fresh thinking, great in depth of understanding software, and ongoing support that proved as valuable and cost effective.
Udi has the unique ability to analyze the business problem and come up with a simple and elegant solution for the code and the business alike.
With Udi's attention to details, and knowledge we avoided pit falls that would cost us dearly.”
Børge Hansen, Architect Advisor at Microsoft
“Udi delivered a 5 hour long workshop on SOA for aspiring architects in Norway. While
keeping everyone awake and excited Udi gave us some great insights and really delivered on making complex software challenges simple. Truly the software simplist.”
Motty Cohen, SW Manager at KorenTec Technologies
“I know Udi very well from our mutual work at KorenTec. During the analysis and design of a complex, distributed C4I system - where the basic concepts of NServiceBus start to emerge - I gained a lot of "Udi's hours" so I can surely say that he is a professional, skilled architect with
fresh ideas and unique perspective for solving complex architecture challenges. His ideas, concepts and parts of the artifacts are the basis of several state-of-the-art C4I systems that I was involved in their architecture design.”
Aaron Jensen, VP of Engineering at Eleutian Technology
“
Awesome. Just awesome.
We’d been meaning to delve into messaging at Eleutian after multiple discussions with and blog posts from Greg Young and Udi Dahan in the past. We weren’t entirely sure where to start, how to start, what tools to use, how to use them, etc. Being able to sit in a room with Udi for an entire week while he described exactly how, why and what he does to tackle a massive enterprise system was invaluable to say the least.
We now have a much better direction and, more importantly, have the confidence we need to start introducing these powerful concepts into production at Eleutian.”
Gad Rosenthal, Department Manager at Retalix
“A thinking person. Brought fresh and valuable ideas that helped us in architecting our product.
When recommending a solution he supports it with evidence and detail so you can successfully act based on it. Udi's support "comes on all levels" - As the solution architect through to the detailed class design. Trustworthy!”
Chris Bilson, Developer at Russell Investment Group
“I had the pleasure of attending a workshop Udi led at the Seattle ALT.NET conference in February 2009. I have been reading Udi's articles and listening to his podcasts for a long time and have always looked to him as a source of advice on software architecture.
When I actually met him and talked to him I was even more impressed.
Not only is Udi an extremely likable person, he's got that rare gift of being able to explain complex concepts and ideas in a way that is easy to understand.
All the attendees of the workshop greatly appreciate the time he spent with us and the amazing insights into service oriented architecture he shared with us.”
Alexey Shestialtynov, Senior .Net Developer at Candidate Manager
“I met Udi at Candidate Manager where he was brought in part-time as a consultant to help the company make its flagship product more scalable. For me, even after 30 years in software development,
working with Udi was a great learning experience. I simply love his fresh ideas and architecture insights.
As we all know it is not enough to be armed with best tools and technologies to be successful in software - there is still human factor involved. When, as it happens, the project got in trouble, management asked Udi to step into a leadership role and bring it back on track. This he did in the span of a month. I can only wish that things had been done this way from the very beginning.
I look forward to working with Udi again in the future.”
Christopher Bennage, President at Blue Spire Consulting, Inc.
“My company was hired to be the primary development team for a large scale and highly distributed application. Since these are not necessarily everyday requirements, we wanted to bring in some additional expertise. We chose Udi because of his blogging, podcasting, and speaking. We asked him to to review our architectural strategy as well as the overall viability of project.
I was very impressed, as Udi demonstrated a broad understanding of the sorts of problems we would face. His advice was honest and unbiased and very pragmatic. Whenever I questioned him on particular points, he was able to backup his opinion with real life examples.
I was also impressed with his clarity and precision. He was very careful to untangle the meaning of words that might be overloaded or otherwise confusing. While Udi's hourly rate may not be the cheapest,
the ROI is undoubtedly a deal.
I would highly recommend consulting with Udi.”
Robert Lewkovich, Product / Development Manager at Eggs Overnight
“Udi's advice and consulting were a huge time saver for the project I'm responsible for.
The $ spent were well worth it and provided me with a more complete understanding of nServiceBus and most importantly in helping make the correct architectural decisions earlier thereby reducing later, and more expensive, rework.”
Ray Houston, Director of Development at TOPAZ Technologies
“Udi's SOA class made me smart - it was awesome.
The class was very well put together. The materials were clear and concise and Udi did a fantastic job presenting it. It was a good mixture of lecture, coding, and question and answer. I fully expected that I would be taking notes like crazy, but it was so well laid out that the only thing I wrote down the entire course was what I wanted for lunch. Udi provided us with all the lecture materials and everyone has access to all of the samples which are in the nServiceBus trunk.
Now I know why Udi is the "Software Simplist." I was amazed to find that all the code and solutions were indeed very simple. The patterns that Udi presented keep things simple by isolating complexity so that it doesn't creep into your day to day code. The domain code looks the same if it's running in a single process or if it's running in 100 processes.”
Ian Cooper, Team Lead at Beazley
“Udi is one of the leaders in the .Net development community, one of the truly smart guys who do not just get best architectural practice well enough to educate others but drives innovation. Udi consistently challenges my thinking in ways that
make me better at what I do.”
Liron Levy, Team Leader at Rafael
“I've met Udi when I worked as a team leader in Rafael. One of the most senior managers there knew Udi because he was doing superb architecture job in another Rafael project and he recommended bringing him on board to help the project I was leading.
Udi brought with him fresh solutions and invaluable deep architecture insights. He is an authority on SOA (service oriented architecture) and this was a tremendous help in our project.
On the personal level -
Udi is a great communicator and can persuade even the most difficult audiences (I was part of such an audience myself..) by bringing sound explanations that draw on his extensive knowledge in the software business. Working with Udi was a great learning experience for me, and I'll be happy to work with him again in the future.”
Adam Dymitruk, Director of IT at Apara Systems
“I met Udi for the first time at DevTeach in Montreal back in early 2007. While Udi is usually involved in SOA subjects,
his knowledge spans all of a software development company's concerns. I would not hesitate to recommend Udi for any company that needs excellent leadership, mentoring, problem solving, application of patterns, implementation of methodologies and straight out solution development.
There are very few people in the world that are as dedicated to their craft as Udi is to his. At ALT.NET Seattle, Udi explained many core ideas about SOA. The team that I brought with me found his workshop and other talks the highlight of the event and provided the most value to us and our organization. I am thrilled to have the opportunity to recommend him.”
Eytan Michaeli, CTO Korentec
“Udi was responsible for a major project in the company, and as a chief architect designed a complex multi server C4I system with many innovations and excellent performance.”
Carl Kenne, .Net Consultant at Dotway AB
“Udi's session "DDD in Enterprise apps" was truly an eye opener. Udi has a great ability to explain complex enterprise designs in a very comprehensive and inspiring way. I've seen several sessions on both DDD and SOA in the past, but Udi puts it in a completly new perspective and
makes us understand what it's all really about. If you ever have a chance to see any of Udi's sessions in the future, take it!”
Avi Nehama, R&D Project Manager at Retalix
“Not only that Udi is a briliant software architecture consultant, he also has remarkable abilities to present complex ideas in a simple and concise manner, and...
always with a smile. Udi is indeed a top-league professional!”
Ben Scheirman, Lead Developer at CenterPoint Energy
“Udi is one of those rare people who not only deeply understands SOA and domain driven design, but also eloquently conveys that in an easy to grasp way.
He is patient, polite, and easy to talk to. I'm extremely glad I came to his workshop on SOA.”
Scott C. Reynolds, Director of Software Engineering at CBLPath
“Udi is consistently advancing the state of thought in software architecture, service orientation, and domain modeling.
His mastery of the technologies and techniques is second to none, but he pairs that with a singular ability to listen and communicate effectively with all parties, technical and non, to help people
arrive at context-appropriate solutions.
Every time I have worked with Udi, or attended a talk of his, or just had a conversation with him I have come away from it enriched with new understanding about the ideas discussed.”
Evgeny-Hen Osipow, Head of R&D at PCLine
“Udi has helped PCLine on projects by implementing architectural blueprints demonstrating the value of simple design and code.”
Rhys Campbell, Owner at Artemis West
“For many years I have been following the works of Udi. His explanation of often complex design and architectural concepts are so cleanly broken down that even the most junior of architects can begin to understand these concepts. These concepts however tend to typify the "real world" problems we face daily so even the most experienced software expert will find himself in an "Aha!" moment when following Udi teachings.
It was a pleasure to finally meet Udi in Seattle Alt.Net OpenSpaces 2008, where I was pleasantly surprised at
how down-to-earth and approachable he was. His depth and breadth of software knowledge also became apparent when discussion with his peers quickly dove deep in to the problems we current face. If given the opportunity to work with or recommend Udi I would quickly take that chance. When I think .Net Architecture, I think Udi.”
Sverre Hundeide, Senior Consultant at Objectware
“Udi had been hired to present the third LEAP master class in Oslo. He is an well known international expert on enterprise software architecture and design, and is the author of the open source messaging framework nServiceBus.
The entire class was based on discussion and interaction with the audience, and the only Power Point slide used was the one showing the agenda.
He started out with sketching a naive traditional n-tier application (big ball of mud), and based on suggestions from the audience we explored different solutions which might improve the solution. Whatever suggestions we threw at him, he always had a thoroughly considered answer describing pros and cons with the suggested solution.
He obviously has a lot of experience with real world enterprise SOA applications.”
Raphaël Wouters, Owner/Managing Partner at Medinternals
“I attended Udi's excellent course 'Advanced Distributed System Design with SOA and DDD' at Skillsmatter. Few people can truly claim such a high skill and expertise level, present it using a
pragmatic, concrete no-nonsense approach and still stay reachable.”
Nimrod Peleg, Lab Engineer at Technion IIT
“One of the best programmers and software engineer I've ever met, creative, knows how to design and implemet, very collaborative and finally -
the applications he designed implemeted work for many years without any problems!”
Jose Manuel Beas
“When I attended Udi's SOA Workshop, then it suddenly changed my view of what Service Oriented Architectures were all about. Udi explained complex concepts very clearly and created a very productive discussion environment
where all the attendees could learn a lot. I strongly recommend hiring Udi.”
Daniel Jin, Senior Lead Developer at PJM Interconnection
“Udi is one of the top SOA guru in the .NET space. He is always
eager to help others by sharing his knowledge and experiences. His blog articles often offer deep insights and is a invaluable resource. I highly recommend him.”
Pasi Taive, Chief Architect at Tieto
“I attended both of Udi's "UI Composition Key to SOA Success" and "DDD in Enterprise Apps" sessions and they were exceptionally good. I will definitely participate in his sessions again.
Udi is a great presenter and has the ability to explain complex issues in a manner that everyone understands.”
Eran Sagi, Software Architect at HP
“So far, I heard about Service Oriented architecture all over.
Everyone mentions it – the big buzz word.
But, when I actually asked someone for what does it really mean, no one managed to give me a complete satisfied answer.
Finally in his excellent course “Advanced Distributed Systems”,
I got the answers I was looking for.
Udi went over the different motivations (principles) of Services Oriented, explained them well one by one, and showed how each one could be technically addressed using NService bus.
In his course, Udi also explain the way of thinking when coming to design a Service Oriented system.
What are the questions you need to ask yourself in order to shape your system, place the logic in the right places for best Service Oriented system.
I would recommend this course for any architect or developer who deals with distributed system, but not only.
In my work we do not have a real distributed system, but one PC which host both the UI application and the different services inside, all communicating via WCF.
I found that many of the architecture principles and motivations of SOA apply for our system as well. Enough that you have SW partitioned into components and most of the principles becomes relevant to you as well.
Bottom line – an excellent course recommended to any SW Architect, or any developer dealing with distributed system.”
Consult with Udi
April 18th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
Great stuff, Udi. Always nice to see challenges to the status quo, or “orthodoxy”, as I’m want to call it.
That said, I’ve got a lot of experience in balancing internal testing with external testing and my own experience doesn’t jive with all that you’re reporting.
Ultimately, it comes to a matter of competence and learning, which you point out in conclusion. Any organization not learning from their practicing is going to end up with sub-par results on anything they do. Any organization creating fragility – whether designing a marketing strategy or designing a software unit is going to have pain.
I completely disagree with the iteration bias. We’ve begun to abandon iterations and optimize team organization and work management and design beyond what Scrum’s assertions can effectively hold up to. For me, this started more than two years ago, and my work management and organization management expectations are quite a bit different from what they used to be. This includes how we’re making use of testing and the meaning and purpose of testing and its effect on productivity. In the end, I don’t think “agile” has anything to do with this. “Agile” has become so watered down that it’s mostly meaningless at this point, and often an unproductive distraction except when rehabilitating very poorly managed software organization who are still trying to overly manufacturing organizational mechanics and values onto software development. Even then, I’d rather go straight to iterationless work management and control without stopping at the Scrum step.
Ultimately, doing things poorly usually means having poor results, and doing things goodly means having good results. This is the ultimate mitigator, and the fruit that most organizations fail to harvest whether in software projects or other aspects of business development and operations.
April 18th, 2010 at 6:25 pm
Hey Udi
Good stuff, I have been reading your post since last few years, also many times I quote from your post.
Going through “On Design for Testability”, I see few things differently, I considered the Unit testing as “white-box” testing — the tests are performed with full knowledge of the source code. Ideally, developer would be able to run unit tests so that all the code paths would be executed as a result of the testing. In other words, the unit tests would need to create the conditions to go through each line of code to ensure all the code was operating correctly today and tomorrow.
Unit Test is very critical because it is one of the first testing efforts performed on the code and the earlier defects are detected, the easier they are to fix. Early bug-detection is also the most cost-effective methodology, earlier we catch them less it would cost and later they are found higher the cost.
Also when we say Unit-testing should only be attempted with things which are units (or components), this is very subjective and depends on how much capital we want to spend, but I would always prefer to have all the new code written to have unit tests coverage, as an Investment in Future.
Basharat
April 18th, 2010 at 9:36 pm
Testable code is usually cohesive as well. Maybe that’s the real benefit to unit testing – it makes poor cohesion harder to ignore.
April 19th, 2010 at 1:55 am
hi Udi,
You’re missing a very important use case for unit tests (or component/integration tests): refactoring! after a year of production you’ll usually have gathered so much more insight into the business domain that you’ll have to refaactor either to implement new features or to improve the performance. having a suite of unit tests will help you achieve this task more quickly.
g,
kris
April 19th, 2010 at 7:44 am
“In either case, we didn’t get the return on investment we expected on the first bit of testing code.”
Your ROI is more than that – each time you run the tests you gain value. You either know sooner that you’ve broken something or have confidence that you hopefully didn’t. The tighter feedback loop *is* your ROI.
April 19th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
Considering domain models, or maybe parts bigger than a single class, as units, was also mentioned on the Ayende’s blog. I often include this kind of tests as unit tests, but in the majority, my tests still cover single classes. Don’t you think than wrapping the whole domain model is too much?
Have you ever informed your employer about possible paths for the project? For instance: ‘plenty of tests will cost you additional two week’, ‘without these we can finish the project on time’ and so on?
Take care
Szymon
April 20th, 2010 at 7:09 am
I disagree strongly that there is an argument to be made against “Design for Testability” based on time and budget. It’s simply a matter of developer training and ability. As an old saying goes – “the opposite of testable code is… detestable code” 🙂
Designing for Testability means adhering to SRP, DRY, and loose coupling principles. Over just about any time span, these principles SAVE time and therefore budget. Even if you don’t write any tests at all, the benefit gained from designing your code in the “testable” way are immense.
April 21st, 2010 at 12:35 am
Scott Bellware,
Thanks for your comments – I think we’re very much on the same page. If a certain bias for iterations exists in the post, that is more of a reflection of the industry than what I believe is best. That being said, I do temper my guidance very much based on what an organization is willing and able to hear at a given time, so I may recommend iterations from time to time as the political realities dictate.
April 21st, 2010 at 12:41 am
Basharat,
Much of what you’re saying is “accepted truth” in the industry, but in my consulting I have seen a very different reality. Just like not everyone who writes code can write good code, not everyone who writes “unit tests” does that well.
The assumption that every unit test written is good does not hold up under scrutiny. In which case, it isn’t necessarily catching or preventing bugs – it’s just more code to maintain.
All I’m saying is for us to be more conscious of the investment choices we’re making, and following up with appropriate reflection from time to time on the return on those investments with real evidence rather than faith.
Thanks for your comments.
April 21st, 2010 at 12:46 am
Scott Peterson,
The term “testable code” is open to interpretation. If the test in question is just asserting that the code is implemented a certain way, “testable code” just means “more code” and is actually a violation of the DRY principle.
I agree that good code is often easy to test, but the inverse isn’t necessarily true – not all animals are dogs 🙂
This stuff isn’t easy, nor is it necessarily easy to teach.
April 21st, 2010 at 12:52 am
Kris,
The purpose of refactoring is to improve the design of the code while maintaining its behavior. It is unlikely that that is the highest business priority after a year of production. It is more likely that maintenance programmers will be fixing bugs and adding features – both of which change behavior, ergo not refactoring.
While I agree that a good suite of unit tests could help in refactoring a well designed code base, there is no inherent assurance that the unit tests are good, or that the code base well designed.
Hidden dependencies through shared databases and web services are often the places where design and unit tests break down and refactoring doesn’t necessarily help.
Cheers.
April 21st, 2010 at 12:55 am
Chris,
As I mentioned in the previous comment, poorly designed systems have all kinds of hidden dependencies that unit tests don’t target. Changes in one part of a system still can break other parts without unit tests going red. In which case, we’re operating under a false sense of security. Is that really such a good thing?
April 21st, 2010 at 12:59 am
Szymon,
I think that most people don’t divide up the system at the right level of granularity (services, business components) which results in domain models which are too large, in which case they’re not a unit either 🙂
When talking to clients about unit testing, I rarely get to the point of discussing the cost of *just* unit testing. Rather I focus on helping them find the right mix of the right kinds of testing throughout the lifecycle of the project – along with getting the right kinds of design decisions, requirements, etc…
Cheers.
April 21st, 2010 at 1:06 am
Travis,
Your statement “It’s simply a matter of developer training and ability” is almost right. I’d remove the word “simply” from that.
Is it easy to get developers with the right level of ability?
Is it easy to train those developers that are at lower levels of ability?
And what do we do in the meantime?
I’d say that “SRP, DRY, and loose coupling principles” fall under Good Design rather than Design for Testability. As I said in a previous comment, well designed code tends to be testable, but the inverse isn’t necessarily true.
There is lots of value to be gained from well designed systems – I agree. It’s just that we need to understand that that doesn’t happen by itself – hiring practices need to be changed, as do training practices, and more. It is a broader organizational issue than can be solved just by developers writing “unit tests”.
April 21st, 2010 at 2:55 am
Udi,
Great post. I was wondering if you would be able to recommend any books on testability issues.
Thanks.
April 22nd, 2010 at 4:41 pm
It’s always sad to see people who assume that just because they haven’t been able to master something, others won’t get value from it.
True, it took me a few years to learn test-driven design to the point where I really could benefit from it. But once I and a few other senior developers had that experience, disseminating the skills to level where we experience benefit require only a few months of pair programming and occasional code dojos.
Once we have a part of our code properly covered with non-coupled tests, the added nimbleness gives us the confidence that we can design for today’s requirements and adapt the code to meet future needs. Since we practice incremental and iterative development, this is essential.
April 23rd, 2010 at 1:17 am
Zilvinas,
Read books written by testers for testers – James Bach is one of the good authors in that space.
April 23rd, 2010 at 1:22 am
Johannes,
On your statement:
“it took me a few years to learn test-driven design to the point where I really could benefit from it”
I’ve found that to be common. If Design-for-Testability advocates would include the fact that this is a long process involving deep skill acquisition, I wouldn’t have any issue with it.
What I don’t like is the message that if you have “unit tests” for your code, and your code makes use of interfaces, you will magically get all kinds of benefits.
Anyway, thanks for your comments.
May 17th, 2010 at 8:11 am
Udi,
it’s very interessing topic.
Some people say TDD is the only way to go and talk about testing in general from TDD’s point of view. That people tend to talk about “core” (as I call them) unit tests. Where “unit” is a class or method. They insist devs should write only unit-tests which are short, fast and have as few dependencies as possible.
I can agree such tests are nice thing to have. But the biggest problem I personaly can see here is that such unit-tests do not guarantee our whole system is correct. They guarantee a system’s parts are only correct.
So we have to have some integration (or as they’re often called “layered tests”) tests.
But if we have to have integration tests why not to make them automated. So we have automated integration tests which guarantee us that out system is ok.
And here the complex part for me : how to seperate effort onto writing tests between unit and integration tests? How to find right balance?
If I try to explain “core” unit-testing to some mid-experienced dev I’ll have difficulties. As I have to explain why he should point his efforts onto tests which do not fully guarantee correctness of the whole system.
May 29th, 2010 at 8:57 pm
Shrike,
As I said in the article, you must assume that there are some tests that weren’t written, in which case there is no guarantee of correctness. Striking a balanace between different kinds of tests is difficult (as you said) but is important – and no, not all tests need to be automated necessarily.